Tuesday, October 24, 2006

French Clerics, Secular Press slam TLM and Trads

French clerics criticize Pope's Latin mass plans
By Tom Heneghan, Religion EditorReuters

Monday, October 23, 2006; 8:52 AM PARIS (Reuters) - Pope Benedict's expected revival of the old Latin mass has provoked protests from Roman Catholic clergy in France, a major center of the traditionalist schism the Pontiff hopes to overcome with the gesture.

(Mont St. Michel)

CR- this is the same France that has brought us Masonic revolt in the late 1700's and today has sweeping anti-Biblical, family destroying socialism/welfare and Church attendance in the single digits (estimated 15% attend "religious services", encompassing SSPX, mainline Catholics, Muslims and Protestants (1)), except among the SSPX and similar Trad groups. Further, consider this entry:However, in a 2003 poll 41% said that the existence of God was "excluded" or "unlikely".[11] 33% declared that "atheist" described them rather or very well, and 51% said they were "Christian". When questioned about their religion, 62% answered Roman Catholic, 6% Muslim, 2% Protestant, 1% Jewish, 2% "other religions" (except for Orthodox or Buddhist, which were negligible), 26% "no religion" and 1% declined to answer. A Gallup poll established that 15% of the French population attend places of worship.In a more recent Eurostat "Eurobarometer" poll, in 2005, 34% of French citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 27% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 33% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force". Anyhow, on we press….

Five bishops and 30 priests -- a considerable number in a church normally wary of open dissent -- have expressed grave concern about making this concession to ultra-conservatives who reject the reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965).

CR-Open from disent, much of the NO world is in dissent. Further, what constitutes "ultra" in conservative? Who said Trads,orthodox Catholics, SSPX, etc reject V2? Most have demonstratable distrust of J2 and want the ambiguities cleaned up. Least we ahve to say it, NO going Catholics believe the Eucharist is actually body and blood- 30%.

Unswerving loyalty to the old Latin, or Tridentine mass, often goes hand in hand with a rejection of the Vatican II reforms, which opened the church to respect for and cooperating with other faiths and switched to a modern mass conducted in local languages.

CR-so, there was no respect for "other faiths" before? Consider this entry of mine: http://catholicresistence.blogspot.com/2006/08/eternally-binding-protection-of-jews.htmlAgain, who rejects V2? We want (I am not SSPX) clarity and the abuses, by the NO fans, cleaned up and made right. The SSPX, by clinging to the TLM and Church Traditions, is growing in a country over-run by Mohammed and secularism. Again, out of the 15%-how many are NO Mass attendees?Few. Further, why should we be "open to other faiths"? Where is that anywhere? We had, argumentably, more converts pre-V2, then post-V2.

The protests printed in the Catholic press highlighted serious issues the Vatican faces if, as church sources have reported, it announces soon that priests are free to say the vintage mass as an alternative to the modern liturgy.

CR- the faithful always have, I have yet to see on J2 document that did away with the TLM. Not one Iota that prevented anyone from saying it. Vintage is good, modern often bad. The Vatican already faces "serious issues"-like bongo drums, struming guitars, clown masses, leotard wearing Gospel reading women (I have seen this 1st hand). This is the fruit of "open" V2 changes.

Demand for a return the Tridentine mass -- an austere ceremony in which the priest prays in Latin with his back to a silent congregation -- is minimal among the world's 1.1 billion Catholics.

CR- His back is not to the people, but facing Christ in the flesh in the tabernacle-what is more important? The people seeing you or Christ, the High Priest? As one that has attended many Sunday and weekly TLM, we are far from silent, as there are many responses and prayers together offered with the priest. Also, you are not sitting there quietly, but praying along WITH the priest, facing Christ. I have been to many NO Masses where the people are busy talking to each other or sitting their with the enraptured smile celebrating the Celebration. Where is the proof of minimality? We shall see indeed.

In the modern mass, the priest faces the faithful, who pray and sing in active participation with him.

CR-Again, shoddy and lazy research. The Priest faces the King, Christ. He does not have a need to face the people as the peoples priest, leading the people. Gain, ther are several times the priest faces the people in the TLM, blessing and interacting with such responses such as "Dominus Vobiscum", our out loud response "Et Cum Spiritu Tuo". Many prayers, such as the Confiteor, are recited out loud. The Readings, including Gospel is out loud, in my parish 1st in Latin, then in English. We get a sermon afterward. The Final prayers are in English. Anyone not felling they are praying the Mass, not just sitting through a pageantry are either unaccomstomed to the TLM or are lazy, as is the reporter possibly. Doubt me, http://www.angelqueen.org/mass/index.shtml

"This could create grave difficulties, especially for those who have remained loyal to Vatican II," Toulouse Bishop Robert Le Gall told the Catholic daily La Croix.

CR-So, those that go to the TLM, never outlawed by V2, are disloyal to V2? More of this idea that V2 is year 1 in the Church for the NO, New Churchers. How has SSPX, Ecclesia Dei, Una Voce, Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, etc- not been loyal to J2? As it was pastoral and not doctrinal, how is this somehow disobidient or heretical? Again, show me the proof! This writer and others like them need the Ferrara book about EWTN. This is gross arrogance on the part of a man that is acting as part of the problem, one that is clearly not makin much impact on his society with the NO debacle. FYI-I go to NO Masses at my parish, but is closer to TLM then vast majoirty of the NO silliness and entertainment hour. Loyal to V2? Where is that in the V2 documents, that we are now "free" to scrap the 1900 yrs previous, engross ourselves in the Cumba-ya culture, syncretism and feel good blasphemies.

In an open letter, 30 young priests said Benedict, 79, should encourage them "to work in the world as it is ... rather than plunge us back into the liturgical life of another age."

CR- The new age eh? Sounds like these "young priests" (hint, hint-the NO is for the young, instead of old foggy stoggies at the TLM, though 1/2 or more of our parishs' TLM attendees are are mid 40's or less, many under 40. I am 35). Work with clown masses, women "priestesses" and largely an apathetic, lazy Catholicism? Yes, that is a plan-lets work with the weeds, instead of planting and growing wheat (Mt 13). It reminds me of a book of Prophecy by Yves DePont, where many mystics state in the later times, the people will say "let things remain as they are". How right they were. So, instead of clinging to a Mass that brought in mass converts over the years-people like Chesterton-a Mass that is unchanging and instead, work with the world that is immersed in pornography, abortion, substance abuse, gross immorality, child abuse, mass death…I could go on, but let us remember another ancient guy from "another age": If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.(John 15:19)

Dating back to 1570, the Tridentine mass was dropped in the 1960s and can now be said only with a bishop's special permission.C

CR-It was never "dropped", many continued to say it, not just the SSPX. The universal indult will take away this power trip from the bishop, making them again more subserviant to the Pope. Again, find me the V2 or other official Church document outlawing it.

But the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), a Swiss-based group launched by the late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre to oppose 1960s reforms, has demanded a blanket permission, or indult, for the Tridentine mass as a condition for its return to the church.

CR- it is supported by much of the SSPX, but the SSPX are not waiting around for permission, they-through their Bishops permission-the article writers test-HAVE been saying the TLM. The in or out of the Church status is one filing entire books.

SSPX leader Bishop Bernard Fellay and other leaders were excommunicated in 1988.

CR-again, some debate-but reading the JP2 writing, yes they were and a shame, as the NO New Churchers have fully blasphemous Mass that are more joke then sacred.

Fellay says the Vatican looks set to grant the indult soon to take the SSPX back into the church.

CR-An indult to allow something never outlawed, but bishops took away, acting as if they were themselves independent princes, not in line of hiearchy with Rome.

But he insists his million-strong movement, many in France, would continue to contest Vatican II reforms from inside the church, creating a loyal opposition keen to steer it back to earlier practices.

CR-good for them and let that happen. SSPX could be a Athanasius type movement, soo to those not in SSPX, but clinging to Tradition and possibly, the TLM. Yes, I have had negative encounters with SSPX individuals and there are, as history proves, a certain widening crack over time with division.

The Vatican has already provoked protest in Bordeaux by readmitting five SSPX priests who preformed a Tridentine mass in a church they occupied there.

CR-what, are not these protestors in line with the year 1 V2 council? Further, define "occupied". Is the Church owned by SSPX? Are they holding a gun and hold up in the Church as if a western, where the white hats are armed to the teeth and barricaded in the saloon? Odd, if this is a problem, the police were not called in by the Bishop, as anyone would with squatters or burglars.

Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, Bordeaux archbishop and head of the French Bishops' Conference, has urged French Catholics to welcome rebel priests who return to the church.

CR-rebels? What are they rebelling against? Oh, that’s right-they rebel against the Council of Councils, V2. Oddly, no anathemas promulgated by V2, the self-lifed authority, the great "nano-nano". This is a slight of hand, placing the Trads in the same category as Luther, Calvin, etc. What did they rebel against in Church doctrine? V2 was pastoral, period.

"We can be charitable and welcoming but we also have to be honest," Besancon Bishop Andre Lacrampe told the daily L'Est Republicain. "I'm not ready to receive them because one cannot erase Vatican II with a stroke of a pen."

CR-why cannot V2 be "erased with a stroke of a pen"? This Bishop, writer of the article and millions of others assume V2 erased the TLM. Papa giveth, Papa taketh away, since V2 was NOT doctrinal, but pastoral. Further, who is SSPX and other Trad groups is calling for erasing V2? Who asked him to receive anyone? And if they are not in sin or outright heresy, who is he to act like Macbeth? I guess the Charasmatic, hand holding and celebration, disguised as a Mass, is ok."

There are very deep and painful theological reasons behind this schism," Angouleme Bishop Claude Dagens told the Catholic weekly La Vie. "You can't pretend that Archbishop Lefebvre's break with the church was only caused by the liturgy."

CR-Yes, the "deep and painful theological reasons" are stemming from the V2 gang of P2 Masons and long simmering Modernists, wrecking the Church and despoiling the Mass, the sanctuary, etc. Lefebvre broke over the innovators and the silliness "reforms" such as passing out the Eucharist in cardboard boxes (World Youth Day in Denver, per Ferrara), etc, etc.

Lille Archbishop Gerard Defois said some SSPX faithful were linked to far-right political movements and noted in a statement that some had "resorted to violent means to occupy churches."

CR-violence, where and when? Where are the police reports? Few doth not a organization make. Further, define "far-right". Are they the ones that want to resverse the athiestic, welfare state? Try to stop Muslims from immigrating to France, as opposed to allowing them in and then crying "help". What crimes do these "far right" people do? This is a wink and nod to the racism card and tin foil hat wearers. Maybe these far rightests remember French kings driving back Muslim invaders and fighting the Nazis, etc. So, SSPX and like minded are driveling, racists. Yes, I see and again, what is Bishop Defois doing to bring back the Faith, win over the Muslims and athiests and restore the nation to Christ? He is busy sullying traditionalists. So to, the writer joins in the abuse. Go to the NO, smile and decided yourself what you believe and chose to follow in the Church, elstwise, you may be a violent, wink-nod "far righter".

And we wonder why the SSPX and others are angry.


(Pic is of Pope Pius V, formulator of the modern TLM, now much maligned and attacked. Guess he to is not too with it and in line with V2)


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