Chat on Just War Theory
Just War Theory Discussion
The other night, I attended my Men’s’ meeting at the home of my Padre. The purpose of our little group, nicknamed the Conclave, is to strengthen Catholic men and to have a positive influence on the Church. To take back from the Modernists and feminists the Church and the male leadership in it.
As I have been suffering from a cold, tendonitis and my ever sleep apnea, I was tired and in no mood for debate or long discussion. Uncharacteristic of me, I was largely silent during out meeting.
A short pause here, all the men in the group are good and decent fellows. All have a great love of the Church-collectively and our parish in particular. All are devoted to the Traditions of the Church.
The topic of the discussion was Forgiveness and related topics/issues with this. Though it was a night I was least in the mood, none the less, the topic veered way off and to politics of a sort.
One of our members, a young and recently married lawyer-in-training brought up Just War Theory, a topic of discussion recently posted on my humble blog(http://catholicresistence.blogspot.com/2006/09/just-war-theory.html). He stated that in modern times, it is hard to justify war, especially with the weapons at our disposal now, including nuclear and other WMD. He noted-correctly-that in times of old, soldiers met on a battlefield with swords, arrows, etc and fought it out. Rarely from these battles were innocents killed. Slaughter by armies then came under condemnation of JWT. He noted as example both the Dresden fire bombing and Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Another member of our group-sadly still reading Joseph “kill all enemies of Israel” Dispensationalist Farah-noted that they victims of these attacks were not innocent victims as they were aiding the Axis powers war effort. No consideration of their willingness in the matter or their starving bodies. Both Hitler/Japan often compelled, at gunpoint and threat of camps, their citizens to work in said factories. Often, starvation and homelessness was a good reason to work in the factories. Also, many saw their work as less support for the ruling elite and more as national survival. Defeat of Germany by the USSR would bring barbaric Soviets to the Fatherland to rape and pillage (which was the result of the occupation and surrender at Yalta).
Oddly, the same reasoning was given by Islamist in their attacks against USA on 9/11 and in similar attacks in past and on USA allies-like Israel. Their reasoning goes like this:
1. The twin towers are a focal point of a lot of money and influence, contributing to the American Empire. Both in taxes and in influence. Of note, Bush brother Marvin ran security, until his contract ended on 9/11/01.
2. The innocent people in the towers were not innocent-according to Muslim mindset-due to the fact their work helped propel the USA economy and taxes derived from said work goes to the coffers of the Empire.
Hence, the innocents were viable targets in their minds.
You see the problem? We get to kill indiscriminately the German and Japanese war workers, yet we condemn the similar mindset of the 9/11 Muslims. As my dad said once, “might was well kill them as they may pose a threat. Why give them the chance”.
A Protestant influenced, Americanist mindset. No regards to the innocents. According to many, Japan for some time was trying to surrender to Mason Harry Truman. Some reading to due on this topic:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/denson7.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico22.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/kohls7.html
http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/007956.html
http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/008682.html
http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/008865.html
For a good perspective on war from a Catholic perspective, see Dr. Tom Woods’s articles:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods-arch.html
Dr. Robert Sungenis makes a rather good point as well (definitely not a wimpy, leftist wimp):
Skull & Bones, according to the book by Anthony Sutton (a research fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University from 1968-1973) America’s Secret Establishment: An Introduction to the Order of Skull and Bones (1983, 2002), is a secret society that originated at Yale University in 1832 and has been instrumental in instigating many of America’s wars and rumors of wars. For example, Henry Stimson, prominent Skull and Bones member of the Truman administration, prides himself on being the major influence upon Truman, based on his April 25, 1945 memorandum to the president, to drop the atomic bombs on Japan. What we know now, of course, is that Japan had been attempting to surrender for the entire six months prior, but their pleas couldn’t get past the deaf ears of Stimson, the Secretary of War. It is probably no coincidence that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the largest Catholic populations in Japan. (The Colonel: The Life and Wars of Henry Stimson 1867-1950 by Godfrey Hodgson, Boston: (Northeastern University Press, 1992).
(http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/politics2.htm)
So, what is the difference between the Americanist mindset of kill ‘um all and Muslims? Apparently very little, other than the fact that-gosh darn it-we are Americans.
Our good, but somewhat confused brother in the Faith then went on to decry why the USA did not have the “guts” to recently take out the Hezbollah leadership. Odd, but I cannot find anywhere in the Constitution allowing for the USA to attack other countries without a declaration of war. The Middle East is not our nation, nor electorate. They pay us no taxes, they are not citizens. Unfortunately, Catholics have bought the hook-line-sinker that Islam is on the rise again for no reason and out to “get us”.
Never mind the support for 60+ yrs of support for the illegal state of Zionist Israel. Why does Hezbollah hate us and Israel? Please listen and watch this video with an open mind:
http://catholicresistence.blogspot.com/2006/08/israel-good-pr-and-lies-about.html
Also, Sungenis’ articles at CAI:
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=hezbollah&domains=www.catholicintl.com&sitesearch=www.catholicintl.com
Hezbollah was formed in 1982, in response to Israel’s invasion of Lebanon and occupation.
Let us remember our Founding Fathers thoughts:
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
~James Madison
If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.
~Thomas Jefferson
The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.
~James Madison
It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.
~George Washington
America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy.
~John Quincy Adams
Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
~Thomas Jefferson
Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
~Thomas Jefferson
America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
~John Quincy Adams
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
~James Madison
About the quote: This quote is from the period he served as a US Congressman (he represented Virginia from 1789-1797).
Also:
Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. You do it with a whole fleet and are called an emperor.
~A pirate, from St. Augustine's "City of God"
A man who says that no patriot should attack the war until it is over...is saying no good son should warn his mother of a cliff until she has fallen.
~G. K. Chesterton
The only defensible war is a war of defense.
~G. K. Chesterton
Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of men.
~Pope John Paul II
My country right or wrong" is like saying, "My mother drunk or sober."
~G. K. Chesterton
Catholics need to be less concerned with foreign interventionism and more concerned with saving of souls. Many Arabs, in Israel proper and Lebenon, ar Catholics. Remember, we are judged on our actions or failure to perform our duties. We are not here is support Israel in some warped Protestant Millennialism. By interfering in foreign affairs, we have sowed the wind and are now reaping the world wind of hatred and attacks. As I was taught in my law classes, one cannot walk up to a fellow on the street, punch him in the nose, get beaten down and then claim to be the victim. Victimization is big business this day in the Jesse Jackson camp, the Israel 1st camp and America in general.
Catholics always must keep one eye on Salvation, the other on Church teaching,:
2 Timothy 4
2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine
posted by John Chance at 8:30 AM
1 Comments:
Constitution Party Platform
Foreign Policy
National Sovereignty
The United States is properly a free and sovereign republic which should strive to live in peace with all nations, without interfering in their internal affairs, and without permitting their interference in ours. We are, therefore, unalterably opposed to entangling alliances - via treaties, or any other form of commitment - which compromise our national sovereignty, or commit us to intervention in foreign wars.
To this end, we shall:
steadfastly oppose American participation in any form of world government organization, including any world court under United Nations auspices;
call upon the President, and Congress, to terminate United States membership in the United Nations, and its subsidiary organizations, and terminate U.S. participation in all so-called U.N. peace keeping operations;
bar the United Nations, and its subsidiaries, from further operation, including raising of funds, on United States territory; and
propose that the Constitution be obeyed to prohibit the United States government from entering any treaty, or other agreement, which makes any commitment of American military forces or tax money, compromises the sovereignty of the United States, or accomplishes a purpose properly the subject of domestic law. In this connection we specifically denounce the agreement establishing the proposed Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) and any other such trade agreements, either bi-lateral or regional in nature. All treaties must be subordinate to the Constitution, since the Constitution is the only instrument which empowers and limits the federal government.
American troops must serve only under American commanders, not those of the United Nations or foreign countries.
Pacts and Agreements
Since World War II, the United States has increasingly played the undesirable role of an international policeman. Through our involvements abroad our country is being changed from a republic to a world empire in which our freedoms are being sacrificed on an alter of international involvement. The United States is now committed by treaty to defend foreign nations in all parts of the world, and by agreements other than treaties to defend more. Therefore, we call upon the President, and Congress, to immediately commence a systematic withdrawal from these treaties and agreements, each of which holds the potential to plunge America into war in some far-flung corner of the earth.
NATO, for instance, serves no defensive purpose for the United States, and this country should withdraw from it.
Unconstitutional, Undeclared Wars
Since World War II, the United States has been involved in tragic, unconstitutional, undeclared wars which cost our country the lives of many thousands of young Americans. These wars were the direct and foreseeable result of the bi-partisan interventionist policy of both Democrat and Republican administrations.
The Constitution Party is opposed to the continuation of the same interventionist policy, with that policy's capacity to involve our country in repeated wars.
We demand that:
never again shall United States troops be employed on any foreign field of battle without a declaration of war by Congress, as required by the United States Constitution;
Congress refuse to fund unconstitutional, undeclared wars pursuant to presidential whim or international obligations under which American sovereignty has been transferred to multi-national agencies.
Foreign Involvement
The Constitution Party has consistently opposed American involvement in conflicts in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Europe, and Central and South America. The United States has no interest in these areas which would justify the sacrifice of Americans on foreign battlefields - nor is our country properly cast as a merchant of death in international arms races.
We propose that the United States
repudiate any commitment, express or implied, to send U.S. troops to participate in foreign conflicts, whether unilaterally, under NATO auspices, or as a part of the United Nations "peace-keeping" operations; and
cease financing, or arming of belligerents in the world's troubled areas.
We support the principle of the Monroe Doctrine, which expresses U.S. opposition to European adventurism in the Western Hemisphere.
We call upon the Congress to immediately terminate American military presence in all foreign countries where such U.S. presence constitutes an invitation for this nation to become involved in, or further participate in, foreign wars.
We are opposed to the negotiation or ratification of any treaty which would deprive United States citizens of their rights under the United States Constitution.
Foreign Aid
Since World War II, the United States has engaged in the greatest international giveaway program ever conceived by man, and is now spending billions of dollars each year to aid foreign nations. There is no constitutional basis for foreign aid. These expenditures have won us no friends, and constitute a major drain on the resources of our taxpayers. Therefore, we demand that:
no further funds be appropriated for any kind of foreign aid program;
United States participation in international lending institutions, such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, be ended;
the Export-Import Bank be abolished;
all government subsidies, tax preferences, and investment guarantees to encourage U.S. businesses to invest in foreign lands be immediately terminated; and
all debts owed to the United States by foreign countries, or foreign entities, be collected
Terrorism and Personal Liberty
America is engaged in an undeclared war with an ill-defined enemy (terrorism), a war which threatens to be never ending, and which is being used to vastly expand government power, particularly that of the executive branch, at the expense of the individual liberties of the American people.
The "war on terrorism" is serving as an excuse for the government to spend beyond its income, expand the Federal bureaucracy, and socialize the nation through taxpayer bailouts of the airlines, subsidies to the giant insurance corporations, and other Federal programs.
We deplore and vigorously oppose legislation and executive action, that deprive the people of their rights secured under the Fourth and Fifth Amendments under the guise of "combating terrorism" or "protecting national security." Examples of such legislation are the National Security Act, the USA PATRIOT Act, and the proposed Domestic Securities Enhancement Act (colloquially known as "Patriot II").
The National Security Act is used by the federal government as a shroud to prevent the American people and our elected officials from knowing how much and where our tax dollars are spent from covert operations around the world. The National Security Act prevents the release of Executive Orders and Presidential Decision Directives, e.g., PDD 25, to the American people and our elected representatives. Not only are many of these used to thwart justice in the name of national security, but some of the operations under this act may threaten our very national sovereignty.
The USA PATRIOT Act permits arrests without warrants and secret detention without counsel, wiretaps without court supervision, searches and seizures without notification to the individual whose property is invaded, and a host of other violations of the legal safeguards our nation has historically developed according to principles descending from the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.
Since we will no longer have a free nation while the federal government (or the governments of the several states, as the federal government may authorize) can violate our historic rights under such laws, we call for the rejection of all such laws and the ceasing of any such further proposals including the aforementioned Domestic Securities Enhancement Act.
The Constitution Party is unalterably opposed to the criminal acts of terrorists, and their organizations, as well as the governments which condone them. Individuals responsible for acts of terrorism must be punished for their crimes, including the infliction of capital punishment where appropriate. In responding to terrorism, however, the United States must avoid acts of retaliation abroad which destroy innocent human lives, creating enmity toward the United States and its people; and
In accord with the views of our Founding Fathers, we must disengage this nation from the international entanglements which generate foreign hatred of the United States, and are used as the excuse for terrorist attacks on America and its people. The 'war on terrorism" is not a proper excuse for perpetual U.S. occupation of foreign lands, military assaults on countries which have not injured us, or perpetual commitment of taxpayer dollars to finance foreign governments.
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