Example of Satanic Protestant Hatred of Mary

Note- this is a rare individual, not indicative of all or even most Protestants. See whoe is calm and even in this, who is unhinged in a dangerous manner. John Salza defends our Lady's honor, Patron is our potentially possessed friend.

Anti-Catholic attacks on Mary

Patron: I was reading your defense on the Assumption of Mary and your argument is rather weak friend. You had mentioned that since they don't know where she is buried and did not have her bones she was assumed into Heaven. Let me ask you this: Where was the Apostle John buried? You don't know because there is not even a single historical record of his death. We then will assume he was assumed to Heaven also. You are also taking the references to Revelations out of context and even your Catholic theologians disagree on Mary being the woman with the crown and twelve stars. You must examine all your tradition against scripture to see if it contradicts. You just can't believe anything Rome comes up with. I am a skilled debator and an expert on Catholacism. I was in your church for over 20 yrs until Jesus woke me up to truth.

J. Salza: Thank you for your message. We don't believe that Mary was assumed into heaven because we can't find her bones. We believe in the assumption of Mary because that has been the teaching tradition of the Church for 2,000 years. While this teaching is not explicitly found in Scripture, it certainly was prophesied in Psalm 132:8, and made evident to John in his revelation when he sees “the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet and on her head a crown with twelve stars” (Apoc 12:1-2). There is also nothing in Scripture that precludes Mary’s assumption. Indeed, if sin is what leads to death and Mary had no sin, then we can surmise that she was taken up into heaven, body and soul.

You have indicated that you are "a skilled debater and an expert on Catholacism" (it is actually spelled “Catholicism”). I will safely assume that this means you believe that the Bible is the sole and exclusive authority for God's word, and that your interpretation of the Scriptures are always correct. As a skilled debater, please explain to me where this is stated in the Bible?

Patron: My friend, I believe it is you who needs to research the early fathers better. Here is a little history lesson for you. I suggest you brush up on your Greek also. In ublic debate you would be rather simple to defeat. You still have not given me one single document or witness to the assumption of Mary. I have researched this extensively and have found nothing. There was not even one mention of this false doctrine in the first 500 yrs of the church (see attachments).

J. Salza: Friend, your cutting and pasting from Protestant web sites is painfully evident. Please come up with your own material. I have been through these debates many times. Your argument below presupposes that there must be biblical evidence or a witness to something or else it is not true. Yet, you are unable to prove your presupposition from the Bible. Hence, any response is a non sequitur.

P.S. Who saw the resurrection of Christ? No one. Yet it is true. Yeah, I know, but the apostles saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. This still does not support your presupposition. Nevertheless, while no one saw Mary assumed into heaven, John saw her in heaven as he writes in the book of Revelation. While he writes about the "souls" in heaven before the throne of God, he also writes about a woman clothed with the sun, on her "head" a crown of 12 stars, and under her "feet" the moon. This means a woman with a body, not just her soul. Yes, I know its apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century, and yes I know the woman can also be a reference to the Church. But the fathers and doctors all agree that the woman principally signifies Mary, the new Eve and Queen Mother of the Davidic Kingdom. In fact, let's see if you can come up with a father or doctor of the Church who says it is NOT Mary. I am waiting.

Patron: Friend, you need to study your Catechism more. If you read number 969 you will she Mary is called Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix.

J. Salza: Yes, it is true that Mary is all of these. Mediatrix simply means that she can mediate, or pray to God, on our behalf. If I would ask you to pray for me, you would be mediating for me. But all of our mediation, including Mary's, is subordinate to Christ. Christ is the reason. He allows us to participate in his mediation, just like he allows us to share in his sufferings (Col. 1:24), to further the work of his redemption. If you look at my links on subordinate mediation and intercessory prayer, you will see the Scriptures replete with verses supporting these positions. So do the Church fathers and doctors.

Patron: Number 971 tells us to give devotion and prayer to her. Last I knew friend that when you pray to someone, kneel down in front of a statue of her or light candles to her I call that worship. I don't know what you call it.

J. Salza: You confuse devotion with worship. Mary herself, under the divine inspiration of God, predicted that "all generations will call me blessed." That is called devotion. Catholics call Mary blessed because of the unique role she played in our salvation. This has nothing to do with worship. The paragraph even distinguishes the devotion we give to Mary from the latria we give to God and God alone. Looks like you are not part of the family of generations that calls Mary blessed.

Patron: Let us now consider Catechism number 841. What does your church say about Muslims and salvation? It says that together us they adore the one and are part of the Christian community. You need to defend this statement also.

J. Salza: The Church says that Moslems, and all people, are included in God's plan of salvation because that is true. God wishes that all people will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. The paragraph does not say, as you suggest, that Moslems are part of the Christian community. They are not. It is true that Moslems, like Christians, hold Abraham to be their father in faith. Moslems hence worship the creator of the universe. The issue, of course, is that their understanding of God is in error. Everyone, including Jews and Moslems, have a moral obligation to join the Catholic Church to be saved. But remaining outside the Church, if it is due to their invincible ignorance, does not automatically prevent their salvation. God will judge them based upon what they know.

Patron: Mary as the Ark of the Covenant has got to be the most STUPID thing I have ever heard.

J. Salza:Then you disagree with 2,000 years of Church teaching, as well as the early Church fathers, and have set yourself up as your own arbiter of truth. See my link on this - Luke deliberately makes comparisons between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant as described in the book of Samuel. John links the Ark of the Covenant in Revelation with Mary, the woman clothed with the sun. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant because she bore the Word of God. I set forth these comparisons in my book The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith (pp. 130-131).
Patron: Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant, because the Covenant was not made through Mary. It was made through Jesus by His Death.

J. Salza: The ark of the covenant has nothing to do with the maker of the covenant, so this argument is irrelevant.

Patron: Secondly, Mary is not an Ark, she is a human being -- and the Bible clearly tells us that ALL humans sinned without exception. (Romans 3:23 --ALL humans that have been conceived by a man and woman WILL eventually commit sin).

J. Salza: Mary is described as the Ark because she contained the eternal Word of God. Of course Mary is not an ark of wood, but Jesus (being the Word) was not stone tablets either. If the word of God became incarnate, then His ark can be of flesh as well. Also, I have a link on Romans 3:23. Your reading of the verse is erroneous. Not all human beings sin. Babies, the retarded, the senile cannot sin. Paul means that all were born of original sin. Paul also tells the Romans that all have sinned, so all were made righteous. But not all were made righteous because not all people will go to heaven. This is because the Greek word for all is "pantes" and pantes does not mean every single one. In Romans 5:19, Paul says "many" (in Greek, “polloi”) have sinned, which means when Paul says “all,” he really means “many.”

Patron: Do yourself a favour and gain some WISDOM before it's too late.

J. Salza: Do yourself a favor and read Scripture in light of the teachings of the Catholic Church who gave you them.

Patron: Queen of Heaven? What a joke! Show me in the Bible where it says Mary is the queen of Heaven?

J. Salza: Show me in the Bible where it says that it has to be in the Bible to be true. You can't, because it doesn't. The fullness of Christian truth comes from both the oral and the written word of God. See 2 Thess. 2:15. This is the sacred Tradition of the Church. Please investigate why you believe in the Bible. Why do you accept the declaration of the Catholic Church that the 27 books of the New Testament are divinely inspired, but not her other teachings about Mary? Sounds like you are a cafeteria Christian, caught in the snares of Bible-alone, private judgment theology. That is error. Please continue to investigate the teachings of the true faith of Christ, the Catholic faith.

Patron: Look up the word "mother" in the Dictionary. What is a mother? My mother gave birth to me, suckled me, nursed me, cleaned me, held me, taught me, loved me. When did Mary ever do any of these things for me? She never did. So then how can Mary be my mother?

J. Salza: Mary is your spiritual mother because she loves you and prays for you in heaven. Read Revelation 12 - Mary is the woman clothed with the sun, and at the end of the chapter, she is called the Mother of all Christians - those who follow Jesus. If you are a Christian (and it is hard to tell based on the venom in your messages), then Mary is your mother. Don’t look to secular dictionaries when you try to exegete Scripture; look to the Scriptures and the Fathers who interpreted them for us.

Also, God the Father did not “suckle” you, “nurse” you, “clean” you, and “hold” you. So how can He really be your Father? Are you arguing that He is not your Father? If you are, then you gravely contradict Scripture and demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of Christianity. If you are not, then you have to reformulate your position by advancing other reasons why Mary isn’t your heavenly mother, just as God is your heavenly Father.

Patron: Surely I would have to be a complete IDIOT to believe that a woman who did absolutely NOTHING for me is my mother. What a load of BULLCRAP!

J. Salza: Very charitable. I wonder why certain Protestant Christians get so angry when we tell them that Mary is their mother? This is likely due to the fact that the have had bad relationships with their earthly mother. They have a tendency to equate their earthly mother with their heavenly mother, and they don’t want to do this if their earthly mother has mistreated them. People often do this with God the Father as well, if they have had bad earthly fathers.

Patron: So Jesus gave Mary to John. SO WHAT? How does that make Mary our mother? You Catholics must all have SHIT for brains if you can't see that John was supposed to look after Mary in her old age!

J. Salza: Evidently, you don’t think much of the words Jesus uttered in agony on the cross right before He died? All words Jesus said on the cross had a divine purpose. While Jesus was asking John to take care of Mary, Jesus was asking Mary to take care of John as well, even “in her old age.” That is because Jesus was giving Mary to all of us, and asking us to give ourselves to Mary in return. You obviously are ignorant of what the early Christians believed about this. Your 21st century perspective is good enough for you. Mary is our Mother because she is the new Eve, just as Jesus is the new Adam. Mary is the mother of the new creation in Christ.

Patron: Your Marian doctrines are a load of BULLSHIT. Mary is NOT my mother, never was, and never will be. My mother is here with me NOW, and she is the ONLY mother GOD gave me. And I can assure you that MY MOTHER LOVES ME MORE than Mary ever will. The woman of Revelation 12:1 is the same woman of Ezekiel 16 -- and that woman is ISRAEL. You people think you are very clever to twist, contort, and pervert the Holy Word of God to make them fit to your own ideas, but you are nothing but a DEN of VIPERS, SONS of SATAN, because only Satan would dare to pervert the Holy Word of God as your evil Church has done. And to top it all off, you pray to sinful HUMAN BEINGS in defiance of Christ's Commandment which command you to pray to His Father in Heaven. You have to be mentally retarded to believe that a human being can hear or answer your prayers!

J. Salza: You obviously lack the Spirit of God and Christian charity using that kind of language. Get a grip on yourself. When people use that kind of language, it demonstrates that they can’t fight their own intellectual battles, so they instead resort to name-calling. This is unfortunate.

Let’s get to the heart of the matter. You are assuming that the Bible is the sole rule and guide of faith, and that God has revealed nothing outside the Bible that is necessary for our salvation. This is wrong. How do you know what books belong in the Bible? How do you know what is divinely inspired, using the Bible alone? You don't, because the Bible does not include an inspired table of contents. Yet you would agree that knowing what books are inspired can only come from God, and knowing what books are inspired is necessary for our salvation. But since the Bible does not say what books belong in the Bible, this forces you to look outside the Bible to learn how the canon of Scripture was selected. This determination was made by the Catholic Church at her various councils in 382, 393 and 397 A.D.

This is a truth that you Protestants simply cannot refute. Therefore, start becoming familiar with history, and abandon your private judgment, non-biblical "Bible-only" fallacy and listen to the Catholic Church, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15). This dialogue is over until you can effectively address this issue - but you can't unless you become Catholic. That, of course, will require you to empty yourself and seek the truth.



++Good Q&A on Mary++

Question 49- Perpetual Virginity of Mary

I have a question concerning proving the perpetual virginity of Mary--
I know that one of the Catholic Biblical proofs for this is in reference to Christ passing his Mother on to John the Apostle during His death on the cross. I have heard that according to the Jewish culture, Christ would have had to pass His Mother on to a sibling if He indeed had one--hence, it is proven that the "brethren" and "brothers" of Jesus in the Bible were cousins or other kinds of relatives, but not brothers/sisters strictly.

What I need your help on is if you can please explain to me a source of some kind to show a protestant that explains/demonstrates that this practice of passing one's parent on to a brother was indeed a part of Jewish culture or the law or what have you. In other words, what can I show this person to prove that this indeed was the case with the Jews, and not something that Catholics have made up in order to justify their position. Obviously, a non-Catholic source--perhaps simply some historical or Jewish source dealing with their culture--would be best.

Look forward to your answer, thanks

B. Douglass: Dear Sir,
In Jewish law a man's heirs are morally obliged to care for his widow. This is part of the Ketubbah, or marriage contract. See the Encyclopedia Judaica's article on widows. It would be quite an insult to Mary's other children if Jesus prevented them from fulfilling this moral obligation, by having one of His disciples fulfill it instead.

In any case, it is simply common sense that in any culture a widow's children should take care of her before family friends take on the job.