More Grumbling from European Clergy

Pope's Latin Mass Plans Spark Concern
By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor, Reuters

PARIS (Reuters) - It isn't official. It may not even happen. But reports that Pope Benedict could soon revive the old Latin mass are stoking heated debates among European Catholics with some fearing this will turn the clock back.

CR-turn back the clock? This is dialectic that we most move continually forward toward “progress”-for what, I guess for progresses sake. This is an area of the world known for decrepit secularism. Depression, suicide, substance abuse and general malaise is high in Europe. It also assumes that “turning the clock back” would be akin to caveman dwelling and grunting in the dark ages of savagery. I have heard similar comments in regards to Luther, leading us out of this dark.

The uproar is loudest in France, where clergy and laity are ringing alarm bells against bringing back the old liturgy.

CR-See my previous critique:
http://catholicresistence.blogspot.com/2006/10/french-clerics-secular-press-slam-tlm.html

Church leaders in Belgium and Germany have also grumbled, saying demand for the old Tridentine mass in Latin was minimal and warning the traditionalists could use it as a wedge to smuggle more divisive issues into the world's largest church.

CR-Demand in, say 1960, may have been minimal for clown masses and hideous art, depressing sermons and teeth-grinding music. What would these “wedge issues” be? Maybe it would be a call for ending the welfare state that is killing rapidly aging and low birth rate Europe. Maybe calling an end to abortion, gay “marriage”. Maybe it would be a call for evangelization. Yes, that is scary-isn’t it.

"The (Tridentine Latin) rite is only the locomotive -- the issue is the carriages that are pulled behind it," Brussels Cardinal Godfried Danneels said last week. "Behind this locomotive are carriages that I don't want."

CR-again, what carriages? A call to actually do the job of a bishop, which is to preach the Gospel w/o fear. What does this Cardinal not want? End the Globalization, abortion, welfare, sodomy so saturated in Europe. Does the Cardinal then wish to be popular or do his job-that of preaching the Gospel in season and out-especially to his Queen, a Bilderberger globalist and daughter of Nazi sympathizers?

These rumblings hint that Benedict might alienate many mainstream Catholics if he opts for a deal to heal an 18-year schism with the Society of Saint Pius X, a Swiss-based group that rejects the landmark Second Vatican Council (1962-1965).
CR-the would is deep, the body very chalky white and hemorrhaging already, thanks to the “mainstreaming” of the Church in these last several unfortunate months. Also, define mainstream?

"We risk creating a front of sadness, discouragement and disappointment with the Holy See," said Toulouse Archbishop Robert Le Gall, using the Vatican's official name. "The liturgy is just the tip of the iceberg."

CR- Your Eminence, look around, the world is a mess. Your country is part of the problem, as is Europe, the land that gave us Charlemagne, the Hapsburgs, the great warrior kings that repulsed the attack at Vienna, Lepanto. Again, every indicator I have heard is that Europe is even a bigger mess of booze, drugs, sex and depression/suicide.

SIGN OF STEP BACK

The Tridentine mass is seen as a symbol of rejecting modernizing reforms such as more participation by the faithful, respect for Judaism and cooperation with Protestants.

CR-As one that just attend, last night, the TLM-I can tell you that participating in the TLM is more engaging for the concerned Catholic then the NO, where many are sitting around listening and watching the pageantry with a rhapsodic expression to ‘One Bread. One Body” and women rifling through the tabernacle and passing out the Eucharist like a free coupon to Chick-Fil-A. TLM requires constant prayer-praying the Mass, not just saying it or sitting through it. As for Judaism, are goal is a call to call them to convert to the new-and only-covenant with God. Nothing in V2 negates the need for this. We had more Protestants convert PRE-V2 then after. Many today wish to bend the Church to a sort of Roman Protestantism. Others want their own Hebrew Rite. Can you imagine Edith Stein calling for this? No.
See my prior article:

http://catholicresistence.blogspot.com/2006/08/eternally-binding-protection-of-jews.html

Find me one sentence in one V2 document that says the Jews are saved by being Jews or Protestants do not have to convert. Find me the documentation that things were terrible between Catholic and Protestants pre-V2. FCFC, Bart Brewer, Chick-all came on after V2.

Most of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics attend Sunday or daily mass in their own language rather than Latin which Vatican II sidelined. Many agree with the respect for other religions that Vatican II made official Church policy.
Cr-Most attend NO because they had no choice, nor were they ever given one. SO many agree to something, as Pope JP2 states in the mid-80’s visit to the USA, ‘The Church is not a Democracy”. The poor teaching and example of these grumblers has led to many thinking V2 was doctrinal or that we were all in some dark slum prior to V2-throwing out sacred music, ornaments and Traditions. As Pope Pius XII hid thousands of Jews, many in the Vatican and his summer palace, I would say that was respectful without indifference or syncretism. Again, see my article about Pope Gregory X.
Priests can still say mass in Latin. All they need is permission from their bishop.
CR-easier said then done in most dioceses. No doubt, difficult to impossible in these Grumbling shepards territories.

But in fact, few Latin masses are said and few faithful turn out for them, the German bishops conference noted last month after conducting an internal study. "We could not see any growth in interest in it, as some have asserted," they added.
Cr- interest in religion in Germany is largely non-existent, especially since those in love with V2 told us for years the evils of pre-V2, the TLM and that all the past 2000 yrs were a mistake and out the door like so many vessels, copes, instruments, etc.

The Society of Saint Pius X, which has about 1 million followers worldwide and is especially strong in France, does not just champion the solemn old Latin mass but flatly rejects what founder, late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, called "neo-modernist and neo-Protestant" reforms of Vatican II.

Cr-so what, they still cooperated wit the Holy See for years after ward. They are not Sede’s. The V2 was not doctrinal, but pastoral. SSPX chooses to do what liberals have done for years, ignore it. Why the punishment for them alone.

Benedict shares their love of Latin and the traditional liturgy and seems keen to bring them back into the fold so they don't set up a permanent parallel Catholic-like church.

CR-the parallel church is that of the NeoCatholic, New Churchers-embracing indifference, syncretism and Assisi pagan prayer meetings, while ignoring that pre-V2 dark, ghetto Fatima appearance and Our Lady’s messages. And warnings. Least we forget:

I am worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy ... A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God ... In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them, like Mary Magdalene weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, 'Where have they taken Him?' ... I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past"

Prophesy of Pope Pius XII (Msgr. Georges Roche, "Pie XII Devant L'Histoire", p. 52-53).

Reports from the Vatican say he is also ready to meet their main demands -- which are the unconditional revival of the Tridentine mass as an alternative to the modern liturgy and the lifting of excommunications of the four SSPX bishops whom Lefebvre consecrated in defiance of the Vatican in 1988.

Cr-and? I thought that the TLM, allowed by bishops, was ok-was it not?

A "LOYAL OPPOSITION"?

Paris Archbishop Andre Vingt-Trois bluntly spelled out the problems the traditionalists would bring at a Paris conference attended by Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Vatican official in charge of liturgical issues such as how to say mass.
"Under the cover of a campaign to defend a certain type of liturgy, there is a radical critique of the Vatican Council, even outright rejection of some of its declarations," he said.

CR-what was radical was the stripping of altars, throwing out the art, the vessels and brining in the shames that we have documented-radical is allowing clowns and rock Masses. V2 should have no critiques at all? Some clergy apparently wish not to be held up to scrutiny

"The rejection of new liturgies was followed by public insults against the popes and crowned by violent acts such as the forcible seizure of a parish church in Paris and an aborted attempt by the same people to repeat this," he said.

CR-oh, how loyal they are-that’s right, no Pope is allowed to be criticized and held to the same standard. When the late Holy Father JP2 tried to clamp down on liberalism, where was this loyalty then on the part of liberals and do-nothings? New liturgies-there you have it. Forcible seizures? Possible out of righteous anger, but…where then is the criminal charges?

The warning from Vingt-Trois came after a rising chorus of criticism from other clergy in France, where the schism also has strong political overtones because of the links some SSPX followers have with royalist or far-right movements.

CR-there we go again, trying to link Trads to nefarious groups. As the Church is a monarchy, what is wrong with brining back this to France? Is the French Revolution-inspired by Masons and marked by vast bloodbaths better? Far right?-does he mane like trying to police immigration, end welfare and bring back some sense of Christian thought in politics? Yes, lets stick with these liberals, after all, we can see their fruits on society, especially when JP2 was trying to get even a mention in the EU Constitution of Christian history.

In an open letter, 30 young priests said Benedict, 79, should encourage them "to work in the world as it is ... rather than plunge us back into the liturgical life of another age."

CR-nice use of lingo, the young opposing the 79 yr old Pontiff. Message-they are the energetic youth against the old, mean Papa. Reminds me of something-I think it was Chris Ferrara said-the V2 was surrounded by the celebration of youth and the enamorment with being young and hip.

Besancon's Bishop Andre Lacrampe said he would like to welcome traditionalists back into the Church but not in a quick deal that avoided answering the Vatican II question.

CR- if the SSPX are allowed their own leadership, he has no say. And should not.

Danneels, an outspoken moderate in the overwhelmingly conservative College of Cardinals, urged the Vatican to be tough in its negotiations with SSPX.

CR-Get tough? Again, Europe’s condition tells me he can’t even get tough with his own flock.

"I've never heard their leaders say even once that they accept Vatican II," he told the Brussels daily De Standaard.

CR- so, should we have a sort of reverse Oath Against Modernism? Should every clergy member and laity have to sign or publicly endorse V2/ Again, it was PASTORAL, not doctrinal.


"I think the Vatican should demand this."


CR-And I think the Vatican ought to review these grumblers fruits, leading to a reduction in pay, benefits or outright dismissal for poor results. The SSPX, Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, etc is growing and outgrowing their facilities. Many new monasteries and convents are growing, not out of New Church, but from the Traditionalist movements. Not secularized Europe or the compromised European Church.